Tuesday, November 24, 2015

Reason Number 659 why I love Donald Trump and you Rhinos can suck it!


Trump on waterboarding: “If it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway”

POSTED AT 11:21 AM ON NOVEMBER 24, 2015 BY ALLAHPUNDIT (Hot air)

Pretty risky. The number of Republican primary voters who agree with this can’t be more than, what? 80-85 percent?
The actual figure is a little lower, although only a little. From a CBS poll last December:
Forty-nine percent of Americans think waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation tactics are sometimes justified to get information from suspected terrorists, but just over a third — 36 percent — think they are never justified. The percentage who thinks these tactics are justified has risen slightly from three years ago.
More than seven in 10 Republicans (73 percent) and half of independents (50 percent) think these tactics are sometimes justified. Most Democrats (54 percent) do not. Those who have heard or read a lot about the report are even more likely than Americans overall to say these tactics are justified.
One of the techniques highlighted in the report is the use of waterboarding, in which the sensation of drowning is created by either dunking a restrained prisoner in water or pouring water over the prisoner’s face. As they did five years ago, most Americans consider this technique to be torture, including majorities of Democrats (83 percent), independents (67 percent), and half of Republicans. The percentage of Americans who do not consider waterboarding torture is unchanged, at 26 percent.
Fifty-one percent of Republicans think waterboarding is torture but 73 percent say it and other “aggressive interrogation tactics” are justified at least some of the time. And the trendline is upward, not downward, which feels counterintuitive as we get farther away from 9/11.FiveThirtyEight crunched some data from Pew late last year:
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Even Democrats are a few points more likely to endorse torture than they were 10 years ago, putting them within striking distance of a clear majority in favor. (We’ll see how durable that support is once a Republican’s back in the White House.) In theory, the growing support for torture is a function of the growing threat from ISIS; the more dangerous they seem, the more willing Americans will be to thwart a planned terror attack by any means necessary. I don’t think that’s what’s really going on in this data, though. After all, these numbers were gathered last year, long before the most recent Paris attack and even before the Charlie Hebdo massacre in January. It’s not the suddenly renewed prospect of major terror attacks in the west that drove the uptick in the polls. What drove it, I think, was pure revanchism towards ISIS after they started beheading people on camera. Tit for tat — if they want to show off their barbarism, they should prepare for a modest taste in kind if the CIA gets hold of any of them. That’s always been the dirty little secret behind the waterboarding debate. Whether it works or not to produce trustworthy intelligence is a hard question to answer — logically, it would depend on the particular psychological make-up of an individual prisoner — but that’s beside the point for most Americans. They back waterboarding as punishment, because degenerates who are committing mass murder of minorities and systematic rape of women prisoners deserve to suffer. That’s the key to Trump’s comments here. Even if waterboarding them doesn’t produce usable intel, they deserve it. You can oppose torture for other principled reasons, like not wanting to encourage the state to get creative with corporal punishment, while still recognizing that point as correct. They deserve it.
Anyway. This is a perfect issue for Trump in that it pits him and GOP voters against elite opinion, and not just elite opinion but pearl-clutching “you can’t possibly believe that” elite opinion. That’s Populism 101. I’m surprised the media hasn’t tried to pin down other ostentatious hawks in the field like Bush and Rubio (or “conservatarian” Ted Cruz) to see where they stand. It’s a dynamite gotcha. If they say no to waterboarding, they’re undermining their hawkish cred to Trump’s benefit. If they say yes, they’re cutting against the consensus view of the political class — or, in Cruz’s case, the consensus view of the Paulite libertarians he’s trying to consolidate. Tough question for them. Not for Trump.
(Rant: This is the difference between Trump and the rest of the Republican field. Even Cruz doesn't have the balls to straight out what we need to do and not worry about elite media opinions. Trump agrees with the average American that we need to do what we have to do to protect our homeland. He doesn't care if you call him racist. He doesn't care if the elite media says "you can't say that." He doesn't care that the pajama boys will call him an Islamaphode. The regular guy agrees with him 100% and thinks that the elitists and the law professors and the media and the rest of the bullshit artists are as Trump would put it "Morons and insane."
I supported him because of the enimies he makes. I didn't think he could win but his rethoric can push the ball down the field. But you know what? I think he can win. Both the Nomination and the Presidency. If there is an ISIS sponsored terrorist attack in America from an migrant refugee let into America by Obama......well he might carry fifty states).

46 comments:

Trooper York said...

I have been watching "Vikings" on Netflicks. The stories of migrant terrorists taking over another society. They English had two options. To fight. Or to pay the Dane-geld.

I did see something that would be perfectly appropriate for ISIS terrorists that we capture.

The "Blood Eagle."

edutcher said...

Waterboarding saved lives and its stigmatization was phony and for solely political reasons.

Anybody need to know anything else.

Trooper York said...

Meade you are banned from any of my posts. Peddle your nonsense somewhere else.

bagoh20 said...

I'm a big fan of waterboarding too. It's like God programmed in a backdoor to everyone's fear zone, so we wouldn't have to actually hurt a prisoner to get information.

On the other hand, I wouldn't use it unless it works, which I think it does at least sometimes, so if it works sometimes and never injures anyone, what's the objection again? Oh, "it's torture". So is listening to Obama preaching against everything American, except that actually hurts people. Waterboarding is to torture what microaggressions are to actual aggression - a word misappropriated so one can pretend they are compassionate.

Trooper York said...

Bags what if it works only 10% of the time. Or even 1% of the time. What if that 1% had included information about the Boston Marathon bombers. Or the animals who did the Paris attacks.

What is the down side? We piss of the Muslims? They hate us anyway. They can't hate us more. Nothing we can say or do will make them behave rationally. You have to do what it takes to keep America safe. If that means we have some waterlogged terrorists....tough shit.

Trooper York said...

I see Mary has started posting here.

ricpic said...

It's torture until your loved ones life is on the line.

Matt said...

To borrow from Whoopi, it's not "torture" torture. How do we know this? Because people were volunteering to have it done to them to show how awful it was. Has anyone volunteered to have their tongue cut out, have a scorching hot metal rods inserted into various orifices, have electric shocks delivered to their genitals, or watch their sisters, mothers, wives, daughters raped in front of them?* No? That's because those are examples of real torture.

*All practices listed were carried out by Saddam Hussein's regime which Democrats wish was still in power today.

ricpic said...

What is torture? I was watching, of all things, an Anthony Bourdaine travel/cooking show and apparently he fools around with martial arts. Anyway, a show that took place in Okinawa featured a style of fighting that includes the use of pressure points. The master would barely touch Bourdaine and he'd crumple up in pain. Is that torture? No permanent damage is done but the pain is excruciating enough to probably break the resistance of 99% of the bad guy population. So what would be so terrible about using that as a way to extract life and death information from a terrorist?

ndspinelli said...
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ndspinelli said...
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ndspinelli said...
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edutcher said...

Matt said...

To borrow from Whoopi, it's not "torture" torture. How do we know this? Because people were volunteering to have it done to them to show how awful it was

You also can't be an American combat swimmer without undergoing it.

bagoh20 said...

"What is the down side? "

There has to be a line. Just because it only scares people doesn't make it OK to do it at the drop of a hat. It is still punishment, just as degradation that did no permanent harm would be like Abu Grab. It would be wrong to do it if there was no significant intel to get (just for fun) or because as Trump said: "they deserve it." We have law and trials for that. We don't punish civilians, or combatants on the field. We hold prisoners until the fighting is over. I think waterboarding is the most aggressive method of interrogation I would support. That said, when it comes down to it, I can imagine doing almost anything to a terrorist to stop a city from being bombed, and I hope people defending us would too. I just don't want it to be policy. Our people should worry about severe consequences for torture, so they won't use it unless it's so necessary that they are willing to suffer severe penalties for it if they are wrong.

Trump fan said...

The Muslims extemists have been trying destroy everything western for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Just read Thomas Jefferson n the Tripoli pirates by brian kilmeade. It shows the only way to win is to bring it to them.

bagoh20 said...

Oh, and people who have a problem with Trump are hardly all RINOs. Trump himself is a RINO: supported Hillary, was soft on immigration before it looked like a winning political stance, supported Universal Health Care, gives Dem politicians money, he never talks much about reducing government, etc, etc.

You may like his style, but he's no conservative politically. Of course the other side are socialists, so he'll still get my vote, but he's really Jeb Bush with a spine and a big mouth.

bagoh20 said...

I think almost everyone would support a cop shooting a guy who is about to kill someone, so I don't know how you justify not waterboarding to stop the same thing or worse. You just have to be sure it's worth it. I don't think we want it to be S.O.P. just to find out which way the enemy went.

Methadras said...

uh, again for the millionth time, waterboarding isn't torture. It's uncomfortable, it involves water, shit I mean if you drink a glass of water and it goes down the wrong way and you cough up, did you just waterboard yourself?

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Waterboarding is the worse thing imaginable.

Chopping off heads for Allah Akbar is politically correct and something we should all learn to respect and admire.

--leftist proverb

edutcher said...

bagoh20 said...

Oh, and people who have a problem with Trump are hardly all RINOs. Trump himself is a RINO: supported Hillary

Some of the stuff out of Hillary's mouth indicates a big donation to the Ozark Mafia was the price of doing biz in the Empire State

Besides, Trump doesn't seem to be the kind of doctrinaire guy who holds ideas through the decades. He does seem open to new info.

Time will tell.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I have been watching "Vikings" on Netflicks. The stories of migrant terrorists taking over another society. They English had two options. To fight. Or to pay the Dane-geld.

I did see something that would be perfectly appropriate for ISIS terrorists that we capture.

The "Blood Eagle."


I have nothing to add but that I love that series and was impressed with how they depicted the blood eagle punishment.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The problem with torture is that it allows us to confuse vengeance with forensics.

It's funny how things change. Back in Roman times, confessions were less credible if they weren't produced while under torture. Now we know that people will say anything to make it stop, which only confuses the intelligence.

I should re-read Son of Hamas because I think he goes into detail about how it was the terrorists who would torture their fellow terrorists while in prison, but for less useful purposes IIRC. As far as the Israelis, I think they were tough with him by using solitary confinement, etc., as an inducement to cooperate, but I don't think it wen't further than that. I also think that they used a lot of promises of reward, too.

In short, I think they were much more expansive and used a wide range of psychological tools with him, but Mosab Hosan Yusuf was no ordinary prisoner.

Titus said...

I am fine with voting for Trump.

tits and muscles.

William said...

It's not the punishment. It's who does the punishing that counts. I think drone strikes would be a much bigger issue if they were being carried out by a Republican President.......It's a claim of the left that any use of force or even rhetoric only serves to drive moderate Muslims to ISIS recruiting stations. What use of force or torture or indiscriminate murder would drive a leftist to be pro-American?

chickelit said...

Titus and I are on the same page for once.

bagoh20 said...

"What use of force or torture or indiscriminate murder would drive a leftist to be pro-American?"

I fear we may find out too late.

Chip Ahoy said...

[south american artist, oils, abu ghraib]

Fernando Botero. Sure was inspired by Abu Ghraib. Not just regular inspired, exhilarated, breathed in and breathed out, filled with galvanized motivation flushed and ruddy with rutilant urges to create and create wildly about how ...

... positively evil George W. Bush is, the little shrub conferred with such power for sinister unbridled activities.

The scenes and his own wild imaginings fired his creativity like nothing before it. The paintings pour out of him demonically, exercising every corner of his activated imagination. He'll become famous, even more so now that he's making a point and now that people are seeing.

He'd honestly be nothing as artist without Bush Jr.

And there is nothing compared to that kind of art devoted to warfare by drone. No artist making their name on anything other than adulation, favorable representations, [obama art] when not idylls with bare chested athletic president, rainbow and unicorn [obama fan art].

AllenS said...

Waterboarding should be used only as foreplay before the actual torture starts.

ndspinelli said...
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William said...

Just as effective as the use of water boarding is the threat of water boarding. The glory of martyrdom can be subverted by dread and fear.......None of this is hypothetical. One of the Parisian terrorists is still at large. He perhaps knows of others terrorists and other plans. If he is captured, would you say that a free society's greatest priority should be to protect his rights or to make sure that we know everything that he knows and to use all available measures to gain that knowledge.

AllenS said...

So, about a month ago, a woman and her son stopped by and asked if I wanted to buy cookies for the Scouts or whatever, and I said sure, I'll take the chocolate chip ones for $14.

Last evening they stopped by and I paid and they gave me the box of what I thought was going to be cookies. I put the box on the counter, and thought it would go great with some coffee in the morning. I just made some coffee and decided to have some cookies. Much to my surprise, it was just round unbaked cookie dough with the chocolate chips in it.

WTF? At least the girl scouts bake their cookies before selling them. Seriously, WTF.

ndspinelli said...
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AllenS said...

Are you serious, Nick? They haven't stopped by here for about 40 years.

ndspinelli said...
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rcocean said...

"Oh, and people who have a problem with Trump are hardly all RINOs. Trump himself is a RINO: supported Hillary, was soft on immigration before it looked like a winning political stance, supported Universal Health Care, gives Dem politicians money, he never talks much about reducing government, etc, etc."

OK - so who's the alternative. And please name someone who can beat Bush in the primary.

Trooper York said...

The people who have a problem with Trump are the people who want to keep things the way they are. They want to buy into the same old dame old.

The people who love Trump want something completely different.

deborah said...

Trooper, how do you know what Trump wants? His campaign could be the biggest con job since fill-in-the-blank. If ever there was a case of 'you'll have to pass it to see what's in it,' this is it.

On the other hand, he probably has the best chance of beating Clinton.

Trooper York said...

What does Trump want?

He wants to win. He will do whatever it takes. If he is the President he will do what ever it takes for America to win. Bomb the shit out of ISIS? Check. Throw out the illegals who are taking American jobs? Check. Stop massive un-vetted migration of terrorist Syrian douchebags? Check. Tell the Black Lives Matter thugs to sit down and shut up and stop their nonsense? Check.

He wants what I want. I don't think he will be as conservative as I am. But who would? Genghis Kahn is dead and buried. But he hits enough of the notes to get my full support.

Trooper York said...

Who should I put my trust in?

Jeb Bush? Who looks at illegal immigration as a gift of love.

Marco Rubio? who will sell out American Jobs at places like Disney World to tongue bath his corporate sponsors.

Carly? A failed business executive who lost a Senate bid who only has one recommendation for her candidacy. A Vagina.

Gentle Ben Carson? Great man. Great Doctor. Excellent person. But is he tough enough to run the country in the face of the threats we face? I don't know. I could vote for him but I have to hear more of what he would do.

Chris Christie? Seriously?

So Trump is the obvious choice. That is why the Democrats and the media and the pajama boys and all the lick-spittle phony Republicans hate him and want to destroy him. He speaks to the white working class in this country.

Meade said...

In Trump Troop Trusts

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I actually agree with Troop, though I think the arguments against his "electability" are still credible. But Trump's own rhetorical credibility makes him far and away stronger in the ways that matter most: His willingness to say whatever the hell he thinks and to tell anyone who doesn't like that to stuff it. Literally.

But I am old enough to believe that Trumpster probably wouldn't do a lot of what he pledges to do and knows that he can use his zeal on the campaign trail for vote value alone.

rcocean said...

Y'know who hates Trump? The same old status quo country club types who opposed Reagan in 1976 and 1980, who thought Bush II was "too conservative" and supported McCain, and who gave us Dole in '96, McCain in 2008, and Romney in 2012.

The same characters who've been working with the Democrats and pushing Open borders, Amnesty, Secret trade deals, and trillion dollar deficits. And now Syrian refugees.

They like Obamacare (its a gift from Jesus) and don't like anyone to right of Mitch McConnell.

deborah said...

You didn't mention Cruz, Trooper.

Trooper York said...

Cruz is my back up guy if Trump doesn't make it. I like his policies. I just wish he would go after the other side harder than he does right now.

Trump fan said...

Romney tried to be liked by all. But he did not have the balls to do what trump does and that's is to tell the truth. I gave it s thousand times ....you are never going to convince the liberals to vote any other way except democrat so stop trying to appease them. Appeal to the core group of Americans who want jobs and a strong country

deborah said...

I figured. It's now or never time. Sixteen years of Dem presidency will definitely leave a mark. Can you see yourself actively campaigning? I never have.