"
Goddard shows how, in recent years, NOAA’s US Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) has been “adjusting” its record by replacing real temperatures with data “fabricated” by computer models. The effect of this has been to downgrade earlier temperatures and to exaggerate those from recent decades, to give the impression that the Earth has been warming up much more than is justified by the actual data. In several posts headed “Data tampering at USHCN/GISS”, Goddard compares the currently published temperature graphs with those based only on temperatures measured at the time. These show that the US has actually been cooling since the Thirties, the hottest decade on record; whereas the latest graph, nearly half of it based on “fabricated” data, shows it to have been warming at a rate equivalent to more than 3 degrees centigrade per century."
"
Right after the year 2000, NASA and NOAA dramatically altered US climate history, making the past much colder and the present much warmer. The animation below shows how NASA cooled 1934 and warmed 1998, to make 1998 the hottest year in US history instead of 1934. This alteration turned a long term cooling trend since 1930 into a warming trend."
"George Orwell explained how this worked."
“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”
― George Orwell, 1984
70 comments:
Lysenkoism in action.
Only within the last year have new technology solar panels produced more energy during their life span than they consumed in their production.
The VA wasn't very interested in providing health care to veterans, but every VA facility has been outfitted with solar panels.
A federal agency "adjusts" reality by computer modeling where outcome can be determined (adjusted) to fit the narrative required to acquire and spend more funds.
I am shocked, shocked, I tell you....
Not unlike those missing emails.
I did a post on this last night after seeing it on drudge (it is scheduled for later today). I updated it to include Lem's post which adds to it.
I especially can do without Henry Paulson's chiding. I get the feeling we are getting played.
So the planet is not warming? Son. of. a. bitch! I've been doing everything I can to expand my carbon footprint, but the rest of you slackers just sit on your asses staring at your Prius and separating out your cans and bottles. A little help here would be nice, you bums! I want Wisconsin to be the center of wine country, so I can move there.
Thanks ELB.
Wisconsin is already the center of whine country.
Self-Fulfilling prophecies. Brilliant.
This will be a huge story on all the news networks right?
Some wine does grow well in Wisconsin, given the sunlight in the summer (a couple of hours more than California).
Maybe they altered the data we have about the surface temperature of Venus and the volume of the ice caps, too! Hecka lot of cooling gets you to melt the majority of your planet's surface ice. Didn't ya know? Once things get cold enough then things start melting. Chickie once did a post on this very phenomenon.
From Goddard's own thread:
Steven – you are incorrect. There is no “measured cooling trend” in the raw data.
The appearance of a downward-sloping line on the chart is an artifact due to the beginning and end points being measured with different yardsticks. : readings taken at different times of day, from an evolving set of station locations, using a different mix of thermometer types, etc etc. So comparing the two (i.e. to look for a trend) without making adjustments is truly apples-and-oranges.
The adjustment methodology was fully disclosed and transparent, and is based on peer-reviewed work. In science, this is exactly how legitimacy is demonstrated, by giving others the tools to replicate or invalidate the results.
Of course if you’re more interested in scoring rhetorical points to political ends, then by all means go ahead float conspiratorial insinuations and quote Orwell.
Goddard's "rebuttal" to this (if you can even call it that) was total weak sauce. It's damn clear the guy doesn't know what he's talking about and is simply looking to make smoke without fire. That can happen when you "feel" truthiness from the gut rather than glean facts from the evidence.
Again, as Stephen Colbert had to conclude, every night the sun gets destroyed. Whatever we can't see is gone, and whatever we do see requires no explanation (unless it's a fancy conspiracy theory). Peekaboo-ologists around the world agree.
Lol. Hilarious comment from that guy's thread:
I’ll be a ‘Denier’ until someone can explain to me how CO2 ‘doesn’t’ turn into Oxygen.
The conservative Telegraph article had a side-bar ad to this. So at least we know the standard of scientific precision and rigor demanded of their contributors!
So, Ritmo argued with himself for a couple of hours last night.
That's interesting.
And the topic was fascinating: I [Ritmo] am as infallible as the Pope!
ST: Who else is he going to argue with? The scientific and public consensus is that the planet is, indeed, getting hotter, and it's all our fault. This is an enforced cultural norm, and we might as well get used to it.
Climate Change will be used as a whip to drive so many cows to slaughter, that those who can get a table in the steakhouse will do fine. The poor schlubs who like milk are going to run short.
Actual cows, being a component of Climate Change, are not meant in the above remark. My cows are metaphorical and have grey spots.
The scientific and public consensus is that the planet is, indeed, getting hotter, and it's all our fault. This is an enforced cultural norm, and we might as well get used to it.
And even if it weren't the latter, it's still true.
You can name popular ideas that aren't true, with science to support them or not, and I'd still say the best evidence shows them to be untrue if that were the case.
All the metaphors and social anxiety ("change only benefits whomever we deem to be elite!") will never answer the question of what to make of all the lost ice.
But this guy can. The possibility of zero emissions, a billion in net worth created by his innovations, 0 - 60 mph in less time than a Porsche takes, incredible torque, and the vision and capability to do what Henry Ford did and make it available to the masses.
Just because something takes change or is challenging doesn't mean it's not worth doing, let alone make it right to deny acknowledging the need for it.
And as for whom I'd intended to argue with, I was supposing it might be the folks here (or elsewhere) sympathetic to the misinformed and out-argued blogger quoted by the post. But I guess the point was really to make some feel-good propaganda for the denialist cause and its limelight-stealing goals rather than a serious debate about what they obviously consider to be the very serious project of promoting denialism.
But I have no problem accepting the surrender of a bad point. I just didn't expect, after all this time, to see it go so quietly. Maybe that's how all bad, but strongly held ideas eventually go.
Ritmo is SCIENCE, boys!
You must surrender.
Where does Elon Musk get his magical emission-free electricity?
Oh, right - he doesn't - he merely shifts the emissions to a power plant. Brilliant! And the LIIs fall for it.
Elon Musk is building a grid of charging stations no further than 200 miles in radius from one another to cover more than the range of his cars across the entire country. The cost of using these stations is free. At the moment they work off the grid but are converting to 100% solar. Even a charge off the grid is more than 50% less carbon intensive than an equivalent amount of gasoline, and you can find how much less carbon intensive by state through an interactive map here, (under "How electricity is generated").
Of course, the answers to any one of these questions could be easily foundd through some basic interest and online surfing, but people who are unable/unwilling to be bothered to do even that are their own explanation for why they are not billionaires and he is.
Ritmo: That is absolutely right. I wrote a comment along similar but more skeptical lines, but pulled it as falling pale and nugatory on a tiring eye.
Some jaundice: Before a trip last week up and down the East Coast, I tried planning it as if I were driving a Tesla, using currently-installed charging stations. It was possible, but inconvenient. It would have taken an extra day to account for charging times and detours to charging stations. Electric cars, and Teslas specifically, will become plausible when charging stations are more common and convenient. As it is, pure electrics are more playthings for the well-to-do than practical transportation. They are very good at cutting me off on 101 on the way to Marin, however. And I saw one zoom up Rt. 2 out of Cambridge the other day in an environmentally-friendly 90+ mph race with a Porsche.
Will the brilliant Elon Musk install street lamps above his solar panels so that they will work after dark?
Why do I persist - someone thinks that self-immolating electric cars that cost as much as a house are a good thing. What a crock.
R & B you said (again, for umpteenth time I think)...
Of course, the answers to any one of these questions could be easily found through some basic interest and on-line surfing,...
Yes, they could. If we were your college students it might be appropriate. However, when it is you who introduces specific in summary to a open conversation, it is just plain lazy of YOU not to link or otherwise provide the details so that others can get on the right track with what you are posing. Don't assume all levels of interest are equal, but DO assume that you can encourage interest if you just back up some of your declarative statements with some evidence that YOU in fact have done what you demand of others...etc.
This comment does that, and on this thread, it is your best most intellectually honest one on the thread. This comment of yours, with a couple simple links actually can stir us dolts to look further in to something that we might not otherwise, given we all are busy with whatever it is we do and may not care much about something until pointed in the direction it leads.
As I have said previously on the subject of electric vehicles, I will buy one when I can afford one that has the basic configuration of a mini-van so I can set it up to handle our dogs and stuff I have to schlep now and then. My doable range is between $40k and $60k. I'd prefer the lower number because I will also have to install an recharging outlet on the side of our house for at least the 240 volt 3 phase level or it is a waste of my time and money otherwise. I'd still do it if I could get the van for $60k, just grumble more...ppbbfffftt. It gets up in to the 70's and forget it...I cannot do it if I intend to make any economic sense of my little world. Same reason I do not have the 2 door coup supercharged Cadillac with 565 BHP .... be fun, but seriously? I am an old dude...a cock rocket is not what I need.
I don't drive many miles, but need 300 at least from time to time (the Musk "supercharger stations would make that 300 in to 450 easily in the time it would take me to stuff down lunch, etc. and at that point it is a no brainer)...travel even short distances is too costly if you add in an overnight stay almost anywhere. I have to go anywhere much outside of Michigan I fly.
Now here's an idea I'd like even better and be willing to pay more to have...a van the size of the short frame Ford or Chevy work and/or club vans that had 4 wheel steering (to make them manageable in the city) and electric power, and a small diesel generator for those times I'm parked in boondocks over night.
I am already aware that electric motor power for vehicles is the most efficient, not to mention the fastest thing around,...it is just the sustainment of power reserve that is still a problem...thus we still use diesel electric for locomotives and large vessels on the ocean.
Now when it comes to wind turbines and solar panels...I am agnostic and will remain so until they can be rendered harmless and requiring far less space overall. I positively hate wind turbines and would be tempted to sabotage any that tried to build near me. Solar panels....Nevada has plenty of space for them...let them have at it.
I neglected to mention that IMO Elon Musk is selling "cock rocket" wannabes. All image, not yet the real deal. Now get down to something for Joe Sixpack and I am on board. He does have the right idea in setting up charging stations, however, they will NOT remain "free" for long...how can they? Like don't they pay for water, sewage, property et al taxes? "Free" is a deception in that case...the cost is built in somewhere.
Anyone who can explain that to me, please do so.
Actually, Sixty, they cost as much as a tool shed around here ;-)
Will the brilliant Elon Musk…
Apparently someone's never heard of the concept of an electric power generator.
What a mistake that billionaire made, not putting such an astute man on his board of directors.
I agree with you, TT., and good points. I also had assumed Musk's strategy (and Fisker's) was flawed in lacking availability for a larger mass market. But my enthusiasm piqued lately when I found out that his strategy actually is to build out to that point. He's actually following an unconventional and somewhat inverted business model, whereby the highest-end models were designed and manufactured first (Roadsters), then a mid-end model with higher production numbers (the Model S), and the last step, which will consist of even greater manufacturing lines of the cheapest models, by which point all the oohing and ahing at the sexy earlier lines will have paid off and translated to the rest of us wiling to chip in for what he'll offer next in the more affordable $20,000 to $30,000 range. (Or even less, who knows).
And you're right that the half-hour minimal time to charge will be either the most significant marketing challenge or hurdle to face. So unless a technical innovation is found for that, he'll have to rely on that drawback being overcome by the convenience of charging at home overnight or at a motel or friend's house while on the road. But the selling point of free charges at the stations he's building will undoubtedly (in my mind) continue to generate interest and brand loyalty based on if nothing else the gesture of it.
The sun never sets in Utopia and unicorn farts are abundant. All hail our future emission-free future, discounting of course the pollution created by producing the solar cells, which require light to work, and electric autos which halt and catch fire.
Only one of the reports involved anything possibly having to do with a battery and their response that "all units were outfitted with a triple underbody shield. Existing cars were retrofitted upon request or as part of a normally scheduled service." This makes it virtually impossible to expose, with a stronger standard than anything else on the road. Investors were happy, and his safety record was still much better than compared manufacturers' incidents.
Of course, if you're a non-billionaire future-fearer, nothing will satisfy you, not even the development of battery technology two hundred years ago by Alessandro Volta, perfectly capable of receiving solar as the input to convert to stored chemical energy (a point you missed earlier as well as just now - don't think these aren't being tallied). But future fearers will fear whatever they can endeavor to misunderstand. So much so that if they were smarter, they'd point out the downfall of the cell phone industry based on the fact that a couple cell phone batteries once caught fire, too.
Or they might even try scaring conventional car owners into not driving because, holy shit, those things have batteries too!
But people still use car batteries and cell phones in vastly growing numbers and Musk's company and the technology he's developing will continue to grow - resentful snark-addicts still addicted to hundred-year outdated horse propulsion notwithstanding.
It's interesting that not only does Grit fear the future, he fears the past. Now batteries (a 200-year old invention) are dangerous technology. I sure hope he never has to use a flashlight, a cell phone, or require a jump start.
Seriously, what a fool.
People in possession of "facts" and "GOOGLE" should make sure to stay really quiet about things like this. They could scare itinerant hillbillies who live in log cabins and fear not only new technology, but technology that's been around a couple centuries:
VEHICLE FIRE TRENDS AND PATTERNS
NFPA members
"U.S. Vehicle Fire Trends and Patterns"
"Reported Automobile Fires in the U.S. in 2006-2010" fS. Vehicle Fire Trends and Patterns"
Author: Marty Ahrens
Issued: June 2010
A complete overview of vehicle fire patterns and trends and the U.S. highway vehicle fire problem. Includes trend tables, type of vehicle, time of day, month of year, day of week, heat source, area of origin, item first ignited and more.
Executive Summary
In 2003-2007, U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 287,000 vehicle fires per year. These fires caused an average of 480 civilian deaths, 1,525 civilian injuries, and $1.3 billion in direct property damage annually.
Details about the causes and circumstances of vehicle fires are provided by Version 5.0 of the U.S. Fire Administration’s National Fire Incident Reporting System (NFIRS 5.0). National estimates of these factors are derived from NFIRS 5.0 and NFPA’s annual fire department experience survey. The statistics in the following paragraphs are annual averages for fires reported in 2003-2007.
Ninety-three percent of reported vehicle fires and 92% of vehicle fire deaths involved highway-type vehicles such as cars, trucks, buses, recreational vehicles, and motorcycles. The term “highway vehicle fires” is used to describe the type of vehicle, not the location of the fire. During 2003-2007, the 267,600 highway vehicles reported per year caused an average of 441 civilian deaths, 1,326 civilian fire injuries, and $1.0 billion in direct property damage. On average, 31 highway vehicle fires were reported per hour. These fires killed one person a day. Overall, highway vehicles fires were involved in 17% of reported U.S. fires, 12% of U.S. fire deaths, 8% of U.S. civilian fire injuries, and 9% of the direct property damage from reported fires.
According to the U.S Federal Highway Administration data, roughly 2,980 billion miles were driven, on average, per year on U.S. roads during this period. Roughly 90 highway vehicle fires and 0.15 highway vehicle fire deaths were reported per billion miles driven.
From what I've read, the overall environmental impact of a Model S, considering manufacturing inputs, fuel to generate electricity, electrical losses and ineffiency, etc., is somewhere between a Ford Fusion hybrid and a Corolla. Not perfect by any means, but for the same damage, instead of a Yaris, if you've got an extra $80-100k burning a hole in your pocket, you can be drving one of the best kick-ass roadsters on the planet. And it has a range comparable to its gasoline-powered bretheren. Only fly in the ointment--which will probably be reduced to a gnat soon enough--is you have to find a place and the time to plug it in, or, as Steve Jobs...er, Elon Musk demonstrated recently, save time by swapping the entire battery pack in less time than a gasoline fill-up.
Teslas are seriously cool automobiles. Not as green as they would like you to feel, but cool nevertheless. Of course, everyone will hate you for driving it, but they probably already do if you're looking to drive a kick-ass roadster in the first place.
R & B ...when you agreed with TT Burnett, I discovered I was agreeing with both of you...if you carefully read what I posted earlier, that is. But then you ran all on off the rails again about peoples "fears" yada yada....but you did support you comment with a link, so I'm more inclined to look in to what both you and TT say on the subject.
I said I'd be part of Musk's market when the price was $40-$60k, and his model S is around $70K+ ...getting closer in a marketing model TT cites. I would note if Musk develops the tin ear that Jobs had, however creative he was, for his market...Tesla is toast unless he can develop a cult following of iconoclast users as Jobs did. I would have happily paid $1.5-$2k for a MacIntosh in 1984-86 because I'd used them in industrial applications. Nope...price remained $3-$4k with no marketing model to expand the usage among ordinary folks. I doubt Musk will make that mistake. First see the cock rocket, then the sedan, then everything else...works for me.
He builds anything similar to a small van, mini or full size short wheel base (would need 4 wheel steering) with a 300 mile range and a supercharge 30 minute 170 mile addition...Whoa, I am buying that damn thing and installing a 240 volt 3 phase dual station at our house.
TT ...for the record, I am just too old to be driving a "kick ass roadster" .... I'd just look like the silly old dude that I probably am...why make a point of it however.
For the model S, even at $70K for the bare bones model ($89K for the upscale version), there is but one Tesla "supercharger" station in Michigan...and that is in St Joseph...which might as well be in flipping Los Angles for all the good that would do me.
Seems odd to me since Michigan is a place where there is really no other reliable transport other than automobiles...but it is what it is...we're not wanted ! ;)
Montana has zero stations as well, and that is almost the "Land of Prius" these days...which just barely hack it in the mountains, but the specs on Tesla indicate they'd be superior.
Finally, a questions for R &B or TT Burnett:
Do (or will they) the Tesla supercharger stations also handle other makes and models of electric cars?
Is there (yet) a standardized specification for charging plugs and adapters, as there are for gasoline and diesel nozzles?
I ask because without some standardization and some locations in Michigan (WTF anyway!?), I'd need a minimum of 500 miles per full charge, done at our house, to even consider a purely e-car or e-vehicle?
PS: Yes, R&B...I h-a-v-e done some searching on Google & Bing, without finding the answers I need. Any help you, or TT, might contribute would be appreciated.
Reason: I really am a serious potential customer for an e-vehicle, or (just maybe) perhaps a hybird with on board generation (which seems like a hassle and one more item to maintain)...flunks the KISS test...and I'm not likely to go for the hybrid.
Failing resolution to the issues (Michigan stations, etc.) and vehicle types, my next vehicle will very likely be when I buy Judi's loaded 2014 Cadillac SRX when it reaches 3 years old and or 25K mile, which ever occurs first...which could be this year...'cause Judi drives frigging everywhere. Shit, she even uses Amtrak to go to Chicago ...says it it a great trip on which to read and finish 1000+ page books, even those by Polish or Russian authors who can try the patience of a corpse, I tells ya'....
R&B ...did you detect "fear" in anything I've said?
I mean, please, give 60-Grit a break, many of his objections are valid.
Actually I am far more regressive than he is, in my perfect world, we'd all be still riding horses to get hither and yon...with rail as an alternative that you could load your horse on to go cross country.
See to be a horseman you have to be able to relate to horses, sentient beings that they are, and be wiling to care for them. They in turn will care for you in dangerous situations. But, unlike cars, if one is not lazy as a old stone, you can do it all by yourself...unlike motor transit of any kind.
I suspect 60-Grit might even agree with me on the horses thing.
Yes, we've come a long way with science and industry...and we have left behind some things we will never recover in the process.
I am not a horse guy, I was always a cyclist. I prefer to do the work myself.
As for fearing the past or the future - what?
I really dislike liars and charlatans. You know, like people who think that we can control the weather. Those nitwits are the worst of the worst.
As for propulsion systems, I think an IC running at a speed that matches its peak efficiency, driving a generator, which in turn sends power to motors close to or in the wheels of a vehicle has the potential to be very efficient.
How solar powered charging stations will ever be efficient is beyond me - who pays for them? What about the emissions required to fabricate the panels?
The same factors that relegated the electric car to the ash heap of history 100 years ago are still here - limited range and long recharging times.
What next, Musk - steam power?
Sixty Grit said...
I am not a horse guy, I was always a cyclist. I prefer to do the work myself.
With horses you also do the work yourself, that was my point...in addition to having to think of the horse not just yourself. A bicycle is a step up for those who cannot economically keep a horse, and I respect that completely. You DO the work yourself...either way.
Agreed, we cannot control the weather and never will. Anyone who thinks they can significantly influence weather is deluded.
I am so disgusted with today's pseudo scientific crap it causes me cramps. Spend time in the wild, live to see what is there...and embrace it.
When it comes to dealing with wildlife, I have kissed a wolf. I do not fear them. And they do not fear me, or man, they merely are suspicious as they certainly should be, because man is a fearful beast who'd kill instead of investigate.
I do not fear their hybrids, as all dogs are hybrids...but I suggest one does not seek that.
I can show photos of the hybrid I placed with a family of 2 infant boys, both who grew to love "Shadow" and he them...and to defend them in a ghetto Detroit neighborhood like no pit bull ever could.
Now I will don my tinfoil hat a retire.:-))
BTW...60-Grit, I am very sorry we got in to a contretemps over support for Palladian. Very sorry. We both had the right idea, but I'm a schmuck, and you might be as well? Yes, you are. You only jerked my cord by the prayer versus action meme....which I took over a year ago, as did others, and I assume, in hindsight, that you likely did too. I could care less about prayers, only actions count with me.
Anyway, I am very sorry if I was insulting or otherwise egregious.
BTW...you made a mistake by bailing on Trooper's place, we all think you had something to say and miss it....at least I do.
Take care "60" and be well.
And, hey "60" ...if you want photos of "Shadow" aka "Steel" I will send them to you....but I need an email addy. He's was real Timber Wolf/German Shepherd hybrid bred by people I know. 140 lbs of all muscle. He was mine from day one we met, as a pup, I saw in his eyes the fire I knew was mine, a wolf's wolf, the loveable fools who "bought him" had no idea, not at all ...and a grand protector of a family. Really.
On the odd chance that those original owners might read this, I am "Nina's ex-spouse" and we knew each other as kin in the northern boondocks. "Shadow" lived 14 years as the magnificent animal he had to be...and I thank you beyond all things, for your acceptance than I needed to acquire him and provide for him. I'll never forget ourt transfer in Grand Rapids in the early morning when the giant puppy became mine. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You made the right decision.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, and his.
Aridog - not all replies are directed toward the same people.
As for your questions, I'm not a spokesperson for anything (other than my own interest in innovation and as TT notes, wickedly cool design). That said, I might have picked up a few things that might be responsive to what you write:
Do (or will they) the Tesla supercharger stations also handle other makes and models of electric cars?
I don't know. But I know that he's being as open on patents as possible. It's another business innovation that would help him by not hindering the market forces that further the public's access to the technology. But service is probably a different matter. I'd imagine the smart move would be to charge other brand owners for charging but to offer it for free to Tesla owners. As a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, the actual offer is free charge for Model S owners.
Is there (yet) a standardized specification for charging plugs and adapters, as there are for gasoline and diesel nozzles?
There are a few EV charges at the structure I use and have noticed various vehicles making use of them. So I believe there is an industry standard.
I ask because without some standardization and some locations in Michigan (WTF anyway!?), I'd need a minimum of 500 miles per full charge, done at our house, to even consider a purely e-car or e-vehicle?
Then it sounds like you're best off waiting as are a number of us. The Model S range has the latest industry-topping range at 265 miles, so you'd still have to await development of a car that gets your range. But regardless of vehicle range, any charging mechanism should allow for it to achieve the full charge for its maximum range. The limit is the vehicle not the charger.
I really dislike liars and charlatans.
You mean, like people who insist that Teslas have greater combustion incidents per mile traveled than other cars? Or people who pretend that solar energy can't be converted into a battery storage system and discharged for later use?
Yes, those people are really annoying. But I guess they can't help it.
9:26 wasn't directed at you, Ari - just to be clear.
Ari -
More on Musk's plans for the cheaper, mass-market model and how that fits in with his overall strategy:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-says-tesla-is-following-his-master-plan/
I really like dogs. Not in a sick way like some here, but you know, as animals that I welcome into my house, with whom I walk through nature, wade in the river with, you know, the usual. We form a group that secures our mutual interests using our best skills. Not sure we are a pack, per se, but we are a team.
This evening's walk included some discussion of what we will do when we encounter a bear. Bears have been sighted here in my little town recently, and while I have dealt with them in the wild before, in California, I think the surprise of seeing one here might be a bit off-putting. But we will deal. Same thing with coyotes and coy-wolves - I have encountered coyotes in the wilds of East San Jose and we were cool.
I imagine I would like horses had I ever spent time with them, but from an early age I was a fan of gasoline engines replacing beasts of burden.
I could tell many stories of being my own personal beast of burden, and once again, it was because I didn't want to use an animal to do work I was unwilling to do myself. So now, at my advanced age, I still do a lot of lifting and drayage, of some significantly heavy objects, because even if horses want to pull, I am not comfortable asking them to do that.
I may have to take two trips for every one trip a horse would make, but I can live with that. What sticks in my mind is how cities were 100 years ago, when horses were used and abused and died in their traces and that just bothers me. I dislike anyone who will mistreat an animal.
So, I am not a horse guy. But I can be stubborn.
And that's all I have to say about that. I wish Troop well - he is a good guy and I imagine he is going through some stuff. I know I did after I had my heart surged on, but now, nearly 9 years later, I can barely recall what that was like.
Tell me who will pay for that stuff. You keep skipping that part. Also tell me about the pollution created during the manufacturing of solar cells. And the carbon footprint required to produce a Tesla.
And tell me about how the batteries are disposed of.
You must be well paid to parrot the selling points of those rolling dildos, as the cars still make no sense whatsoever. I really like the "They burn to the ground less often than a car full of gasoline" line - that's priceless. They have no gasoline in them, they shouldn't burn down at all.
Oh right, they are bodged together, poorly engineered and nothing more than crony capitalism for the 1%ers. Keep preaching - you may actually convince someone, somewhere, that Musk is anything other than a snake oil salesman.
R & B uttered....
The limit is the vehicle not the charger.
Wrong. The limit is the battery. And that is part of the vehicle.
I'v worked in equipment power generation, including hydro-power, and the the technology is not yet there.
But fuck it, right?
Blessed bullshit uber alles, right?
Said simply, give me a 400 mile vehicle and I'll buy it.
Or whatever....when we get there we will know it, sans advertisement. But give me a Tesla Model S mini-van and I'm there
no shit about it. Just gimme!
Musk doing his thing with the chick from Forbes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8PEnK3aoFQ
Go check out more of the videos that populate the suggested links afterward.
Curse all you want about it. The range that Model S has innovated is comparable to the range of most gasoline cars. You have a niche request that may and probably will be innovated later, but in the meantime this is coming closer and closer to the average customer. Not yet in price (although in the works), but in the meantime market interest in his models thus far surpassed expectations. So it's likely that his "Model T" version will surpass even what his luxury models have done.
I'm sensing an ultimate snark warrior upthread (not necessarily by Aridog - who likes the provocateurs to be clarified), who's doing his best to prove the aphorism popularized by Lincoln that no one will ever please all of the people, all of the time.
But in the meantime, you can make billions off of fulfilling a clear market demand, and innovate your ass off at the same time. Just like Edison did (in equivalent dollar amounts for his day). Just like Tesla did. Just like Henry Ford did. And all of those American heroes had their discontents in the day, too. People heavily invested in the belief that the industrial innovators had to be wrong, and if they weren't wrong, then God dammit they'd surely bitch and moan about them not being fucking perfect!
Lol.
Perfection. A standard demanded by a guy who has done nothing anywhere as substantive as any of the above. And will bitch and piss and moan to his dying day in devoting his every spare second reminding you (and himself) of it.
Ari - also, be advised: Batteries and chargers are different things. Batteries are inside (thus part of) the vehicle. Thanks.
But magical free solar powered charging stations that will charge one's battery in minutes for free will magically appear all over the country at no cost to tax payers.
Musk is a genius - what a business plan! Magic!
Sometimes houses burn too. Even when they don't have gasoline in them.
But don't tell that to the Grinch. He's liable to call every homeowner a damn fool or worse. Enablers of charlatans. Back into the wigwams, hapless habitat-dwelling fools!
Musk is a genius - what a business plan! Magic!
How much money have your businesses made, genius?
It's easy to criticize when you not only don't know what you're talking about, but hate people who do, eh? And have contempt for the people who demonstrate as much.
Are you sure your condition wasn't psychologically-mediated? Being a curmudgeon with one's head stuck as far in the ground as yours is can't be a happy and healthy state.
Nice dodge, but once again, you fail to answer who is paying for these magical solar charging stations and how they will magically recharge a battery in a reasonable amount of time.
You haven't because you can't. Whatever dude.
The Business Innovating-Hating Curmudgeon has a very practical and not at all utopian product to market to a very impatient American public: Fireproof high-performance and conventional automobiles!
For a very long time, the American consumer has been put off by driving, because as we all well know, the fear of the fires they can be involved in is unacceptable to them (or it would be if the car was electric - most resistance to gasoline engines, as everyone knows has to do with their flammability).
So, at long last, the asbestos automobile is being unveiled at every major city's auto show in 2014. Major investors are sure to hop at this incredible, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to make everyone's dream come true.
We welcome the next hero of American industry: Sixty Grit. His image will soon be on the covers of Forbes, Bloomberg, and Horse Lovers' Monthly. Because ultimately, it was all for the horses anyway. They hate cars and their flammable ways the most. Even more than the people that drive them.
Nice dodge, but once again, you fail to answer who is paying for these magical solar charging stations and how they will magically recharge a battery in a reasonable amount of time.
I dunno. A billionaire who believed enough in his own companies to revive them and make them stronger than ever?
Obviously your own personal definition of "reasonable" is anyone's guess. And pretty much no one else's priority. The things sell. They can charge at home. Ever hear of a "garage"? Many of these crazy house additions actually have electrical outlets! Holy Shit! But of course, why would anyone want to plug in their car to their own outlet when they can spend more on gas and wait at a station to do it?
Just admit that you don't understand the market. Musk's other models outsold their original production line. It's likely that his low-end model will do the same. I don't care if you believe it or not. The only person you're trying to unconvince is yourself.
No one can predict the future, but I rest assured that the most off-the-mark and wild guesses will come from a guy who didn't know that batteries could capture solar energy, and insisted on this point until his feet just couldn't stomp any more.
R & B...we are what you say, toast.
I wish we could engage at at civil level, but we cannot.
You are an extremely weird guy, Ari. Demanding answers of me that are easily Googleable, and then when I provide them, reacting angrily at my snarky answers to a different snarky person who is not you. I don't take your personal grudges with others personally, but if you insist on taking my defense at being snarked at by others personally, or worse, mistaking them for replies to you, then you're really not capable of having a conversation with anyone on a personal level, as far as I know.
I don't know anyone else who takes the disputes of others personally, unless he has problems differentiating between people altogether and sees everyone he interacts with as part of some big, confusing cloud-based one-person, with no ability to distinguish between individuals whatsoever.
Good luck on continuing to not look into things. So sorry that you'll no longer be able to blame whatever results from that laziness on me.
Sigh.
Gentlemen:
I am too occupied with digesting a nice steak dinner to do research for you, but I distinctly recall recently reading answers to your various questions/objections. Answers there are out there, formed, as usual, with varying degrees of objectivity.
Some answers are hard, such as the environmental impacts of manufacturing and energy supply inputs. Some are easy, such as the elegance and performance of Tesla automobiles. There are also those that are unresolved, such as the likelihood of Tesla going one way, and all other manufacturers another, with regard to standard electrical connectors.
Firewire or, better yet, Thunderbolt, anyone? According to rumor, Tesla may stick to type and use OS X or iOS as its operating system, something like Ford has already started to do with Microsoft. Tesla/Apple, Ford/Microsoft: What more do you need to know?
[hate] Hipsters with MacBook Airs [/hate]
I gave the executive summary of inputs in a previous comment, but to recap, it is my understanding that, considering ALL the manufacturing and energy inputs, including impacts of solar cell manufacture, etc., your basic Model S is roughly the environmental equivalent of something between a Yaris and a mid-size Japanese sedan. Not bad for a Porsche equivalent. Not totally green, either.
But driving a Tesla is an amazing experience. I did it some months ago in California. As a general principle, I am not attached to material things in this world. But being fully aware of not coveting my neighbor's goods, I would seriously consider any reasonable offer that includes a Tesla in exchange for...well, name your price.
Yours,
"Dr. Faustus"
P.S.--
Before we leave, I think it is is obvious our contention partly turns on facts. But, Facts are hard creatures. I recommend this blog post, containing Oliver Wendell Holmes' thoughts. Holmes was a man acquainted as well as any with facts, but, despite that, he also had a subtle appreciation for them that transcends mere truth.
The energy density of petroleum has yet to be matched by batteries.
Batteries cannot be recharged quickly.
An electric car, driving in the winter, up north, with the heat and defroster blasting will have its limited range even further reduced.
Those cars are playthings of the rich. They will never be anything but that.
These issues, and those of battery disposal will never allow these toys to be "green".
But Magic and believing and clapping our hands will make Tinkerbell live, or something.
60-Grit said....
These issues, and those of battery disposal will never allow these toys to be "green".
A valid point, no doubt about it. Batteries are an issue with all forms of electronic devices. I just sought a simply battery at the Corporate store of the largest cellular outfit in the country. Guess what? They do NOT carry ANY batteries...e.g., buy a new phone or tablet! Pshaw...its only $200-$500+
I politely said KMA and bought a battery for my cell phone on line for $22.
They won't say why, but a big part of the reason is the disposal question...just like Jiffy Lube, et al, has a surcharge for disposal. Except oils can be recycled in to other energy, batteries not so much.
Not sure who cited it above, but someone mentioned Internal Combustion Engine driven electric motors...e.g., like the diesel electric power of locomotives. That may be the next step...it is a technology nearly 100 years old.
I mentioned hybrid power production in motor vehicles as making a lot more sense than driving around in a molten battery case.
A friend was just here in her new Camry hybrid - a Prius writ large - nice, efficient car, very capable, God only knows what the total range on that thing is - but I dare say, having a generator onboard makes a lot more sense than praying for sunshine up north in the winter.
A diesel hybrid works for me - works for railroads, too.
I was reflecting on a lifetime of driving - one time I drove from Ponce de Leon Florida to Benson Arizona in two days. That simply would not be possible in a Tesla, unless you swapped out your battery every time it discharged.
But part of the reason leftists want to push these non-conveyances on us is to limit our freedom to travel. Just another way to keep the masses in their place.
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